Razgovor o šablonu:Lokacijska karta Ukrajina

Karta mora biti neutralna

Žao mi je za moje loše bosanski. Ja sam koristeći Google Prevodilac da razgovaram s vama kao ja ne govorim taj jezik. Ova stranica je trenutno krši WP:NG koji govori o tome kako neutralnost je važno na Wikipediji. User:Golden Bosnian Lily prvobitno promijenjen kartu da pokaže Krim kao neprikosnoveni dio Ukrajine sa opisom "Krim je Ukrajini (moje mišljenje)". Navodeći da je već kršenje Wikipedia politike. Ovo ne bi trebalo da bude oko nečija lična mišljenja i stavove. Možete prepoznati Krim kao Ukrajina ili ga možete prepoznati što je Rusija, koja je tvoja odluka, ali Wikipedia mora da bude neutralan i pokazati ga kao sporno područje. Kada sam pokušao razgovarati sa korisnika koji je dodao ovu kartu, oni odgovorili ponovnim mi govori da ne prepoznaju i smatraju Krim da bude dio Ukrajine. Ako se to dogodilo na engleskom Wikipedia onda korisnik će biti zabranjen za gledišta gura do sada. Opet, ja se izvinjavam za moju bosanski, tu su vjerojatno mnogo grešaka u mom gramatika, ali nadam se da razumete ono što govorim. --Turnless (razgovor) 01:13, 15 juli 2016 (CEST)

Neutralno gledište je fiktivan pojam. Glede EN Wiki, nama baš nije neutralno gledište da je bosanski varijanta srpskohrvatskog. Dovoljno je u članku Krim dopisati tekst koji govori da postoji spor između Rusije i Ukrajine, i to je dovoljno. Ako bude kad promjene granica, ali legalno na papiru, lahko je to i ovdje izmijeniti. Ima tu i privatnih razloga, jer Wikipediju ne pišu roboti (čast izuzecima), nego ljudi - mi! --Munja (razgovor) 02:00, 15 juli 2016 (CEST)

Ne, to nije "fiktivan pojam", to je politika Wikipedia ne samo na engleskom, ali i ovdje pročitati WP:NG. To nije dovoljno samo kao putting sporne reči je jedna stvar, ali to pokazuje na karti je potpuno nove informacije. Neutralnost je Wikipedia politiku i treba ih poštovati. Ne možeš odlučiti šta je dovoljno i ono što nije, kao što bi trebalo biti uključeno i ono što ne bi trebalo. --Turnless (razgovor) 02:11, 15 juli 2016 (CEST)

Postoji milion načina za manipulaciju neutralnim gledištem. Postoji više faktora, pogledati: WP:Sistematska pristranost. --Munja (razgovor) 02:31, 15 juli 2016 (CEST)

Činjenica da neutralnost može manipulirati ne oduzeti iz činjenice da Wikipediji teži Neutralne točke gledišta na sve svoje članke. Rezultati Crimea kao osporena područje je jedini način biti neutralni u ovom broju. Osobna mišljenja korisnici ne bi trebali imati utjecaj u uređivanju članaka. --Turnless (razgovor) 02:38, 15 juli 2016 (CEST)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘

1. Kartu koju želite postaviti nije čak u upotrebi niti na ruskoj wikipediji,
2. ako ćemo gledati neutralnost prvo se obratite wikipediji na ukrajinskom i tatarskom jeziku,
3. ne možete mijenjati tek tako karte bez saglasnosti zajednice,
4. Vandalizam koji radite već ste uradili na nekoliko wikipedija,
5. zamoljavam nekog od admina da zaključa šablon od daljnjih izmjena! --Golden Bosnian Lily (r) 05:13, 15 juli 2016 (CEST)

Da ukrajinski Wikipedia također krši ovo pravilo, ali jer je ukrajinski Wikipediji su mnoge povrede neutralnost je njihov Wikipediji kada su u pitanju rusko-ukrajinski sukob. Ruski wiki je druga priča, koriste kartu sa Crimea osporava ali je njegovu stariju verziju. Gotovo sve karte koje već zamijenili pokazati Crimea kao osporena ali starije karte s manje kvalitete tako da nema je vandalizam i ja neću ni promijeniti sve informacije, sam samo ažuriranju stare karte za novi i poboljšan još jedan. Ova Wikipedia ne poštuje ni neutralnost uopće u tom smislu. Činjenica da ukrajinski wiki koristi ovo kao i ne daje ti pravo da kršiš neutralnost u svakom slučaju. --Turnless (razgovor) 14:22, 15 juli 2016 (CEST)

Munja, Golden Bosnian Lily can you both return to the discussion as it is not over. Srdjan m has agreed to translate my English comments into Bosnian so that you can hopefully understand me better. --Turnless (razgovor) 23:24, 18 juli 2016 (CEST)

I understand you perfectly, still not willing to change my mind. Let's wait for others to comment. --Munja (razgovor) 23:43, 18 juli 2016 (CEST)

This (and other) disputed regions (like Kosovo etc.) have to be treated at the same manner. As most of the countries in the world see Crimea (still) as part of Ukraine, it is OK to use old maps, but it is not an error to have maps with highlighted Crimean (highlighted but within the Ukrainian borders). --سلام - C3r4^r2d2 08:47, 19 juli 2016 (CEST)

Exactly, it is not like I am trying to replace this map by showing Crimea as an integral part of Russia. The map clearly shows Crimea as a disputed region, which it is. It is not just my opinion, it is a Wikipedia policy. --Turnless (razgovor) 21:44, 19 juli 2016 (CEST)

May I also add that Šablon:Lokacijska karta Srbija doesn't show Kosovo as part of Serbia at all despite the fact that the UN as well as still a very large number of countries recognize it as Serbia. I would also suggest using an NPOV map there as well (File:Serbia adm location map.svg). The double standards that this Wiki currently sets for different disputed regions is entirely against WP:NG and is in no way neutral. --Turnless (razgovor) 23:40, 19 juli 2016 (CEST)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Talk about Kosovo and Serbia maps, please use correspondent talk page. Kosovo is not integral part of Serbia, as seen from point of view of 108 countries in the world. It is not member of UN, that's right, but majority see it as independent state. On the other side, nobody see Crimea as part of Russia, except Russia itself.--سلام - C3r4^r2d2 08:25, 20 juli 2016 (CEST)

I'm not talking about Kosvo and Serbia, I am just pointing out that it is also a disputed region but this Wiki is treating the situations differently. In comparison, Kosvo is not just not a member of the UN, it is recognized as an integral part of Serbia by the organization. Yes, 108 UN member states recognize it as an independent state but the fact that 85 countries, including Bosnia and Herzegovina, still recognize it as Serbia should be a good enough reason to show it as a disputed region. But again, I'm not starting a discussion about Kosvo, I am just using it in comparison. Oh and no, Russia is not the only country to recognize Crimea as Russian territory. 8 UN member states have made statements about their recognition of Crimea and Sevastopol as Russian federal districts. A few non-UN member states have done the same. A number of other countries recognized the results of the Crimea referendum. Yes it is much less recognition than of Kosovo but ignoring those countries as if they don't exist is not the right decision. Crimea is currently under the administration of Russia as well, so Ukraine does not even have control over it. The fact that this map is ommiting that information is very misleading. Once again, I am not pushing for Crimea to be shown as an integral part of the Russian Federation, I am just pushing for a neutral map that clearly shows it as a disputed (and uncontrolled by Ukraine) region, which it currently is. This is a policy followed by Wikipedia as per WP:NG, which I am continuously repeating. --Turnless (razgovor) 08:59, 20 juli 2016 (CEST)

The sentence I made bold is a lie. Don't lie! --Munja (razgovor) 14:56, 20 juli 2016 (CEST)

Excuse me? It is not a lie! Bosnia and Herzegovina still recognizes Kosovo as a part of Serbia. Go visit the website Kosovo updates as soon as a new nation recognizes them [1]. Bosnia and Herzegovina is not there because they have not officially recognized Kosovo as a state yet. Don't forget that the country also consists of the Serb dominated Republika Srpska that will not be willing to make such recognititon happen. Don't accuse me of lying when you do not know these facts. Do some research about the topic first. --Turnless (razgovor) 17:45, 20 juli 2016 (CEST)

Bosnia, being neutral, did not recognize Kosovo as part of Serbia neither. So you did lie. Focus on topic, do not mess around. --Munja (razgovor) 18:10, 20 juli 2016 (CEST)

What are you talking about? The fact that Bosnia and Herzegovina did not recognize Kosovo is exactly what I said. I am focussing on topic and not "messing around" but you are accusing me of lying which I have not done. --Turnless (razgovor) 19:12, 20 juli 2016 (CEST)

OK, people, let's end this. Turnless is right about Crimea (mostly recognized as a part of Ukraine but currently disputed). Kosovo is a different case. Put the (currently) right map. Disregard personal opinion(s). End of story. – KWiki (razgovor) 19:17, 20 juli 2016 (CEST)

Smatram prijedloge korisnika Turnless neusvojenim te daljnja rasprava o ovoj temi nema smisla. Svima Vam želim ugodan i prelijep dan ;) --Golden Bosnian Lily (r) 21:54, 20 juli 2016 (CEST)

Korisnik:Golden Bosnian Lily, A user right adove you just supported changing the map to the one with Crimea shown as disputed, so no this discussion is not closed. If you do not wish to participate, that's fine, but don't speak for the entire discussion. --Turnless (razgovor) 22:26, 20 juli 2016 (CEST)

The map still violates WP:NG by keeping Golden Bosnian Lily's opinionated edit in which the user added the map that removed the disputed status of Crimea. I also just want to say, Munja's response by calling me a liar because he thought there was a fact I got wrong only shows how unpatient and unwilling to discuss the user is. Right above that comment that I made, C3r4 made a factually false statement that Russia is the only country to recognize Crimea as a part of Russia. I didn't call him a liar for that, but explained that that wasn't the case, Munja should have done the same in any case if there was something he thought I got incorrect. Thank you KWiki for seeing how obvious it is that Crimea should be depicted as a disputed region, and despite the inappropriate comment left by Golden Bosnian Lily, the discussion is not yet over. --Turnless (razgovor) 16:34, 24 juli 2016 (CEST)

The reason I called you a liar is this: You said Bosnia did not recognize Kosovo as independent state - well that's true. But you also said that Bosnia recognizes Kosovo as part of Serbia. That's not true. Bosniaks and Bosnian Croats see Kosovo as independent state. Kosovo not being recognized by Bosnia as independent state doesn't mean that Kosovo is recognized as part of Serbia either. That's my point, and I am done with this. -- Munja (razgovor) 00:02, 26 juli 2016 (CEST)

Apsolutno sam protiv prikazivanja nekih teritorija drugim bojama te zamoljavam nekog od admina da postavi datoteku Ukraine (1991-2014) location map.svg u šablon. Ovakve primjere imamo uglavnom kad se radi o Rusiji i njenom političkom djelovanju van granica svoje države, tzv "huškanja" koja imamo u Moldaviji, Gruziji, Azerbejdžanu, Ukrajini. Pitam se što ne uradimo istu stvar za Čečeniju ili pak Dagestan pa da te teritorije prikažemo na isti način poput Krima. Ovu raspravu smatram završenom te još jednom naglašavam da sam protiv prikazivanja Krima nekom drugom bojom od Ukrajine. Korisnik Turnless je vjerovatno čaraparko nekog Putinovog istomišljenika jer mu je cilj na svim wikipedijima isti (mijenjati šablon lokacijske karte Ukrajine pa gdje upali-upali) --Golden Bosnian Lily (r) 00:37, 26 juli 2016 (CEST)

Svjestan sam tih političkih igrica, ali činjenično stanje trenutno je takvo da je Krim sporna teritorija, a i prije toga je bio autonomna republika u sastavu Ukrajine (s većinskim ruskim stanovništvom); isključivo iz tog razloga stavio sam trenutnu kartu (lahko je promijeniti čim se nešto raz/d/riješi u tom ukrajinsko-ruskom čvoru /da bogd'o hoće više.../). – KWiki (razgovor) 00:50, 26 juli 2016 (CEST)

Thank you KWiki for following Wikipedia policy and replacing the map with a neutral variant! I once again would only like to respond to Munja's comment out of personal frustration and repeat myself that if there is a fact that you think I got incorrect that is no reason to call me a liar. That is no way to have a discussion. You correct the mistake and explain your reasoning just as I did with the user above. I would continue and argue about the issue you brought but I see little point in doing so as you will most likely only continue to repeat yourself by calling me a liar. I'm glad this dicussion finally conluded with neutrality restored. --Turnless (razgovor) 08:17, 15 august 2016 (CEST)